EP 02: The Cost of Performing

As therapists, we're trained to develop skills, learn frameworks, and provide effective interventions. But somewhere along the way, many of us become so focused on doing therapy the "right" way that we lose connection with our own presence.

In this episode of Beyond The Therapy Room, we explore the difference between performance and presence — both inside the therapy room and beyond it.

We talk about the pressure many therapists feel to get it right, produce outcomes, and meet expectations, and how this can quietly shape not only our work but also our identities, businesses, relationships, and wellbeing.

Together, we explore:

✨ The difference between performing and being present
✨ Why self-monitoring can become self-pressure
✨ How people-pleasing and perfectionism show up in therapy work
✨ The role of self-trust in creating meaningful work
✨ Why authenticity creates deeper connection than perfection
✨ The link between performance, burnout, and disconnection
✨ How to reconnect with yourself when you've been stuck in your head

This conversation is an invitation to step out of performance and back into presence.

Because the most powerful thing we bring to our work isn't another qualification, modality, or framework.

It's who we are when we're fully present.

If this episode resonates with you, we'd love to hear from you. Join our community, share your reflections, and let us know what conversations you'd like us to explore in future episodes.

IG: @beyondthe_therapyroom

Transcript

Ali: 0:00

You followed the training, you've built the skills, and you became the therapist. But now you're wondering, is this it? Beyond The Therapy Room is where we have the conversations most therapists are thinking but not saying out loud. There's Skye, psychologist and mentor, and Ally, counselor and tantric healer,

bringing two perspectives: 0:19

clinical and intuitive, structured and expansive. We talk burnout, identity, spirituality, business, relationships, and what happens when you stop playing by the rules that you were trained in. This is for the therapist who knows there's more. Two different paths, two different perspectives, but the same truth. There's more available to you than the box you were trained in Here we are. Welcome back for episode two of- Yeah… Beyond the Therapy Room, where today, Skye and I are going to explore the difference between performance and presence, both inside of our clinic rooms and outside. Mm-hmm. Um, we're trained in all of our different modalities and therapeutic approaches. We're trained to be very competent- Yeah to be able to provide, you know, clinical interventions and support people in so many varied ways. But when we're focusing too much on these, um, different methods and methodologies, often that can take us away from being very present- Yeah … and available with the people that we're connecting with. Yeah. Yeah. So we wanted to explore that concept a little more today and, and the differentiation between how those both feel. How about you, Skye? Like, when you were first trained- Mm … and started doing therapy with other people, did you notice you c- you kept coming back to those, um, ways in which you were trained?

Sky: 1:47

Yeah, the way that my brain always does it is that it's like I was taught how to do things- Mm … but not necessarily, like, who I needed to be in the room, or even who I was to start with and what that looked like in the space. And so for a lot of the time, it felt very performative in the way of, like, how do I show up and do the assessment the right way? Or how do I evaluate risk the right way? And it was always the right way, not necessarily focused on what's my way-

Ali: 2:14

Yeah … and what do

Sky: 2:15

I bring to the room, and what's my flavor of how I do things. Mm. And so I feel like that's where I got very caught up in even my identity, right? Of, like, this performative thing of, like, what's the, what's the good psychologist, or what's the good therapist, or how am I supposed to be? Yeah.

Ali: 2:32

So, like, that checking in with how am I doing- Yeah … how am I showing up in this space? And I hear that a lot too with some of the younger psychologists that come in that we've been, you know, debriefing- Yeah … and supervising with. This, this self-monitoring part of them is quite loud at the start, you know? We, we're fresh out of uni or, you know, um, our training in whatever modality we've trained in, and we're overly conscientious- Yeah … and we're wanting to produce outcomes for our people, and we're just trying to do our best, which is great. Yeah. So we are checking in with the how am I doing. Am I, you know, performing in the ways that I've been trained to? Versus, you know, how do I… Like, it took me maybe at least 12 months of being in therapeutic sessions to really feel into how can I mesh- Mm … some of these things that I've learned into, um, a way that then delivers support to others, but that's Ally's way too, right? Yeah. Yeah. And when we started, um, working outside the therapy room in groups, Sky, I remember a lot of the time, as you say, we're yin and yang or chalk and cheese- Yeah um, some people would gravitate more towards myself and others toward you. So it's, it's, I think it's when we start to be really present with people- Mm … and show ourselves to them- Yeah … that they find the good match, right, who is their match, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. So

Sky: 3:52

I think for me, um, and I'd love you to maybe help me explain it to everyone, Ally, it's like how do we kinda know when we're performing, right?'Cause there's a place and time for learning, self-awareness, self-monitoring. Like, I think that's so important- Mm… because we're in a very, um, people are in a ven- very vulnerable space coming to us. So we need to know what we're doing. But when does that kind of move to I'm performing? Like, what does that look like in real time? Like, how would somebody know in the therapy room that they're stuck in that kind of phase, do you reckon?

Ali: 4:25

Yeah. I think it is when I'm, like, if I get caught up in that self-monitoring part of myself- Mm … and I'm always kind of, like, thinking about, well, what outcomes am I trying to achieve for my person here, or like even if I'm thinking about therapeutic- Yeah approaches in that space, my presence isn't, is on myself, not on my person.

Sky: 4:44

Ah, okay.

Ali: 4:45

Does that make sense? Yeah. And I don't

Sky: 4:46

know if you're listening to it. Ally put her hand up near her head, right? Yeah. Mental. So to me, it's like you get caught up in your own head, right? Yeah. And so you're not actually being aware of the room, what's going on, the interaction. You're more thinking about, like- Am I doing this right? Yes, that's right. Is that what you mean? Exactly right. Like, is this correct? Yeah, so- And, or, or, or Sky's brain, am I fucking this up? That's exactly how you would say that.

Ali: 5:08

Yeah. So for me, what I do in that moment, in order to flip the switch from noticing I'm performing or, you know, caught in my mental realm- Yeah is I'll have a deep breath, and I'll just tune back into my body. Mm. You know, I'll feel my bottom on the chair, my feet on the floor. Yeah. I'll connect back to my breath. Mm. 'Cause when I'm present with myself, then I'm more able to attune to and stay connected to tracking the other. Yeah. And when I'm doing that, um, the third thing that happens then is this resonance is then created between me and my person. Yeah. And that creates a relational safety, because we can have all of the therapeutic knowledge in the world, and all of the competence- Yeah … and know all of these modalities we've been trained in, but what we know is that things that happen in relationship, like, um, trauma or, um, you know, adversities and setbacks, they are also healed in relationship. Yeah. So one of the biggest things people actually really need from us when they come into our rooms is our presence- Yeah… and that relational quality, isn't it?

Sky: 6:10

Yeah. It really is. Yeah. I think that then links my brain to if we're then not aware of the identity of who we are and who we're bringing into the room, then not only is that gonna impact that therapeutic relationship and how that modality is kind of delivered, but it's also gonna become, and I've noticed this for myself, right, is the bottleneck of, like, what I then get to do outside of the therapy room. Mm. And whether that be on a, like a, a business professional level, or even just in terms of, like, relationships with other people. Yeah. Right? Like my… I know for me, bringing into the therapy room, and I learnt this early on, was, like, the people pleaser. right? And the overly responsible one. And so I spent a lot of time feeling like I was solely responsible for everything that happened- Mm in the therapy room. Mm. And so when I took that outside of the therapy room, I just over-thought everything. Yes. And we were kind of doing that before we got on, right? Yeah. Like, overthinking about, like, "How we're gonna do this? Is it gonna be all right?" Like, it shows up everywhere. It

Ali: 7:06

does. Once you become aware of it, you can't not see it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so for me, another modality that did help me to let go of that, it's, it's funny, is the circle of security. Yeah. Because that is based on the quality of relationship, right? Mm. And so, um, knowing that I can be safe hands for someone, a secure base and safe haven, but they're responsible for them too, you know? Mm. So that part of me that wanted to overproduce, or over, like, overachieve- Yeah … 'cause that's massive in me as, as a story- Sure … was then able to go, "You know, what's mine is mine, and what's theirs is theirs. And I'm here to provide this beautiful presence- Mm-hmm… and, you know, emotional safety. A land- like, a safe landing place." And as long as we can have that quality of relationship in the room, that person's gonna leave the room, and they're gonna have to go do life on their own without me available to them. Yeah. But they'll come back in. Mm-hmm. You know? So that going out and that coming in, that happens because of, um, the circle of relationships- Mm is awesome. That helps me have that place to come back to.

Sky: 8:07

When you were talking then, what just came into my head, and I know this comes up with a lot of the, the therapists that I talk with, is, like, self-trust. Mm. Right? Because I think there's, um, us being able to hold space for somebody else and allow them to go out in the world and come back and… But then there's also this level of, like, trusting yourself- Yes … to, like, let go of that control in that therapeutic space, or let go of the outcomes. Mm. And I don't know about you, but I, I find that this is the biggest thing with a lot of us, is that when we want to do a podcast, or we want to run a group or a workshop, like, we're so focused on

Ali: 8:45

the outcome. Yeah. How's it gonna look? Yeah. How are people gonna receive me? Am I, am I, um, showing up in a way that they're gonna like, you know?'Cause we're seeking approval, aren't we? There's a part of us that wants approval, and we… And that stems so back into our early childhood, doesn't it? Absolutely, and I don't think we realize

Sky: 9:01

that- Right you know, a lot of the time. Like, we logically know. Like, we're trained in this stuff. And equally, though, I don't know about you guys listening, but then we also don't know.

Ali: 9:09

Yeah. And that- And sometimes it's not until we're in the doing of these things that we can, um, really notice where and how it's showing up. Yeah. And you put something up interesting on your socials today, Sky, around, um- Oh, I lost it.

Sky: 9:26

We were actually just talking about, like, menopause and, and, like, age just before we got on here, hey? I lost it. I lost it. And this is what I love about this is because other… This normally, like, if we were doing something outside of that therapy room, we'd be like, "Oh my God, I got it wrong. We need to delete it, or we need to do X, Y, and Zed." Yeah. Versus, like, why is it not okay for us to just show our, like- Human-ness … literally, right? And this is what this podcast is about. It's, like, you starting to get an understanding about who you are- Mm… and that you get to be flawed in it all in

Ali: 9:58

such a beautiful way, and then do it anyway. Absolutely, 'cause you know what happens when you do that in front of the person who's in your room, is they see that you, too, can make mistakes- Yeah … or you, too, um, you know, can lose your train of thought. Yeah. You're just as real as they are. Yeah, and I think this is where your word presence comes in, though, right? It does. It does, because if they can see that you're happy to show and reveal your full expression to them- Yeah … um, then they're gonna probably have more permission to do the same in return, right? Yeah.

Sky: 10:30

Yeah. And this als- this then links to that, um, being connected, right? Because if we're wanting to connect in the therapy room- Mm or we're wanting to connect, like with you guys, right, listening to us right now, or, um, if you wanna connect in, you know, a retreat, or a group space, or whatever it is that you wanna grow- Mm … getting caught up in performing, like doing it the right way, having to get it correct, polished, perfect, controlled-

Ali: 10:55

Yeah go, I see your brain. I, I'm looking back at our notes that we created with each other. It does, it increases that pressure that we put upon ourselves, doesn't it? 100%. And it, and it leads to feeling, um, really stretched in a different way. Yes. Like, when you are actually being real, authentic, genuine- Mm-hmm and just being your human self, there's an ease about that, isn't there? Yeah. Whereas if you're really trying to push these outcomes, and show up and perform in a certain way, like, that takes more energy to sustain that type of, um, way of showing up in the world. Yeah. And then I think it also does lead to more burnout.

Sky: 11:30

Yeah, and I think we're gonna do another episode around that, where burnout actually isn't what we think it is. Yes. Because it's like you're saying, sometimes we're so busy trying to be who we're not- That it just doesn't come with ease. That's right. It feels clunky then, doesn't it? Right, and messy. I remember when I… Like, if you followed me for a while, like you will see my social media as being clunky, right? It's like, "I'm a psychologist. No, wait, I'm the ADHD coach. No, wait, no, I work with high-performing women. No, wait." Like, it's, it's almost like we're, we're trying to put ourselves in, like, this is the right thing- Mm or this is the right thing, or this is the right thing. Or we make ourselves wrong when we start to kind of go, "Oh, wait, I'm actually just feeling into who I'm being or what I wanna do."

Ali: 12:12

Yeah.

Sky: 12:12

And because we haven't got it perfect to start with, we stop, and we pause, and we don't do the thing. Mm-hmm. And that's part of this, um, whole podcast. It's about it doesn't, it doesn't have to fucking look a certain way. Yeah.

Ali: 12:25

Yeah. I'm hearing what you're saying there, Skye, and- I can see your brain ticking. Yeah. What's showing up for me as you're sharing about that is, like, again, that people-pleasing part or that performing part, um, really loves that feedback, as you say. Yeah. And when you're getting these client outcomes, or you're hearing people give you praise about how much your support has helped them, you wanna keep doing that thing because you know it's serving those people. Yes. But it also needs to serve you. Yeah. And so that alignment with, is this still filling me up with joy? Am I still bringing my authentic, real human self to this? Am I present in what I'm doing, or am I just ticking boxes? Yeah. Yes, I did the assessment. Yes, I did that, that certain ki- type of questioning- Yeah … or I, I observed in that way. Like- There's a big felt difference- Yeah … on the receiving end of that.

Sky: 13:12

And I think you've been going through this a lot, um, with your own business journey, right? Mm-hmm.'Cause I know for me, like, I love the therapeutic space. I'm not giving it up. Right? But equally though, I, I feel like I have outgrown that just being all I wanna do. Yeah. And for a long period of time with me, I think you're right. I think because I was caught up in good girl, people pleaser, therapist, and I got so much good feedback- Mm-hmm … from that role- Yeah … I was like, "Why, why would I step out and do something else where somebody might judge me in a bad way?" Like, that would be silly. Like, then I'm not gonna get validation and, and, and positive praise. And it takes a lot of courage, I think, like you're saying- Mm. Mm … for us to do that and step outside of what, what we're familiar with and the role that we know how to play.

Ali: 13:53

Of course, yeah. Yeah. Last time I was saying, like, on that precipice of newness or uncertainty- Yeah… or that next version of ourselves, and of course it's gonna be scary.

Sky: 14:02

Yeah.

Ali: 14:03

Yeah. And like that self-trust muscle though builds- Mm … and confidence, it's built when we go and do that thing. Yes. When we're able to, um, you know, have that courage and believe in ourselves and follow through.

Sky: 14:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Ali: 14:16

Jump off the- Yeah … the limitation. Jump off the cliff. That's the word I was looking for. I was like, "What's that metaphor?" Yeah. Yeah. So when we come back to this differentiation between performance- Mm … and presence, one to me feels like pressure- Yeah … and the other one feels like relief. Yeah. You know? Like, the difference between always coming back to that head space- Mm … or those, um, all of those trainings or qualifications and approaches, versus, "Hey, that's in the background, and I know that- Yeah and I trust myself enough that I can just be my beautiful human present self with you, and this is gonna flow through." Like, when the head gets out the way, the heart flows through, doesn't it? Mm. And for me, like, head feels performance, heart feels like presence.

Sky: 15:01

Ooh, I like that.

Ali: 15:02

Yeah.

Sky: 15:02

Yeah. Yeah. Um, what I just did when you were, like, talking then was having this sense of like- I feel like we blur the line, right, between I'm learning something and I need to build skill and knowledge, and that's essential for the therapy room, versus now I'm caught up in then performing that. Mm. Right?'Cause that's a big distinction. Like, we're not saying don't learn. But equally, though, sometimes we don't need to learn that extra thing to do the thing. Mm-hmm. Right? Sometimes, like you said, it's more about, cool, before I go and learn something more, how do I be with who I am right now?

Ali: 15:38

Yeah. That's a beautiful

Sky: 15:40

way to put it.

Ali: 15:40

Yeah.

Sky: 15:41

For sure. To check in. Yeah. Like, if you're checking in with, like, where… 'Cause I know your career is, like, moving at the moment. Like- Yeah … what are the things that come up for you that maybe some people can relate to when they start to shift from performing or having that mask on to actually stepping into their own flavor and their own ideas? Like, what are- What's personally showing up? Yeah, 'cause I feel like people will relate

Ali: 16:03

to some of the things, right? Yeah. Well, um, the logistical part of my brain's, like, trying to say, "Can I still earn the money I need to earn- Mm … to pay my bills?" Like, there's the practicality side of things. Yeah, definitely. But then the big thing for me is always visibility. So if I've always been known as this type of therapist- Yes … but now I'm gonna lean over this way and do therapy in a, a different way-

Sky: 16:28

Yeah… Ali: will I still be Or will I- Yeah … still have enough people wanting my support in that way? Yeah. So that- they're two of my bigger ones. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I, I think- It just takes, for me, it takes coming back into align- like, the alignment of my three brains. I've got to have the courage- How do we do that? Yeah … the courage comes from our gut- Mm-hmm … or our belief in ourselves- Yeah … our actioning of things, motility, you know? Mm-hmm. And then I've got to have this, it's got to… My heart's got to be aligned. Values, it's got to be what is true and alive and passionate for me. Yeah. What I'm really wanting to show up and be present in myself and, and share with others. And then the head is the creative tool. So when we're disconnected from this wisdom down here- Shh, point to a body if you're listening yeah, yeah. Anything below the neck- Mm-hmm … if we're disconnected from that and we're stuck in the mental realms, we're gonna ruminate, we're gonna, um, overthink it, we're gonna procrastinate, we're gonna sit in indecision- Mm-hmm … and we're just gonna get so caught up in story or the limitations. Yeah. So for me, I'm, well, my way of the mantra is check below my neck. If I can tune back into intuition- Mm … and instinct or our heart and gut brains- Mm-hmm … and all three are on board- Mm-hmm … then I'm more likely to be able to self-trust and jump off that precipice into the deep end.

Ali: 17:38

I like

Sky: 17:38

that. What I… 'Cause I think I'm very head brain too, right? And what was really cool, and I just heard you talking then, was like, if you check in, like, below the neck of, like, what you want- Mm and what feels good for you and what feels aligned, then when you go up to head brain, it actually allows for more opportunity and creativity. That's right. Right? Yeah. Whereas if we start here, if we start in our head, I don't know about everybody else, but generally I then start with self-criticism. Why the fuck would you do that? Don't be so stupid. People are gonna judge you. Mm. Everybody's doing it better than you. Mm. Like- That imposter syndrome-… and all of the limiting stories, limiting beliefs Absolutely. You're not gonna be available enough for all of the people that wanna see you in therapy, and like, bl- like-

Ali: 18:15

Yeah … all the stories. It'll give, give you all the reasons why you can't.

Sky: 18:19

Yeah. Yeah. If you reverse engineer that, which allows then for creativity.

Ali: 18:23

Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool. Well, that's what the brain is meant for. It's meant to be a creative tool. Mm. And it's not until the energy can flow up to it in that direction that it will really flourish. Like, you think of a tree. Yeah. A tree grows from a seed and, you know, up and out and flourishes. Your energy's a bit the same. Yeah. So if you're, if you've got the alignment of your body wisdom- Mm … then your creative tool will be able to flourish and blossom Cool.

Sky: 18:49

So what, I would love to kinda, um, think about, like, what we can give people to, to take away to, to start, uh, I guess on their journey of, like, exploring. Like, wherever you are, whether you're already thinking of beyond the therapy room, whether you've already engaged in something, um, like, what do you think is a really cool thing that they could start doing that might help them actually with that energy and with that alignment to start being able to tap into that creativity? Or what is it that you might do that they could kinda take on board? Uh, for their own kind of, like, presence in their own world? Yeah, to bring that presence in. If we're so busy performing, masking, on the verge of burnout busy- Yeah … um- Anything that

Ali: 19:29

gets you out of your head. Cool So think to yourself, "When am I most present with me?" Mm. Um, for me, simple things like eating really- I'm like, bring when eating chocolate … yeah. It really presences you though, right? Yeah. What is it about chocolate that makes you feel,

Sky: 19:44

like, in your body? It makes … It's like, it's like, or maybe it's like having a, like having an ovate for somebody else. It's like, gives me a moment. It's an excuse. It's like I'm stopping and eating this chocolate. Oh, it's a me

Ali: 19:52

moment. Mm. Yeah. So think of anything that gives you a me moment- Right … or, or a moment of presence. Is it when you're in the shower? Is it when you're driving? Mm. Is it when music is on? Start with that. Mm. Like, really be more present with yourself.

Sky: 20:06

Yeah.

Ali: 20:06

Be able to tune into when am I most in my body. Mm. Yeah, and do more of that.

Sky: 20:12

Yeah. That's a

Ali: 20:13

great starting place. I love that.

Sky: 20:15

And then I think for the, for me, the flip of that has also been, um, to also check in when I flip out of that.

Ali: 20:22

Mm.

Sky: 20:23

Right? Because wherever you're flipping out of that is probably, like, revealing where your bottlenecks are gonna be in terms of stepping out of the therapy room, growing, whatever it is that you're gonna do. Yeah, absolutely. And for me, that was, has always been, like if somebody says, "I need you," right? That's always flipped me back into,"Okay, I've gotta perform. I've gotta be on. I've gotta be doing."

Ali: 20:41

Yeah. There's an expectation there, and that's when your performance kicks in, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Whereas presence, like you said, it's like, "Okay, where's me?" Yes. Yeah. Mm. 'Cause yeah, we could have … I think this is the whole difference here. Performing is placing all of our awareness on the other- Mm … whereas presence is br- coming it back- Yeah … your awareness is on you. To you. Yeah.

Sky: 21:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Ali: 21:03

Cool. So how do we sum this up for everybody? Oh, the way, yeah, translates beyond that therapy room in everyday life. It's not just about your professional space, it's about your personal journey as well- Yeah … right? And, and how you can come back to being that beautiful, expansive being that you are. Mm. People are gonna see and feel that coherence that you embody when you are being yourself in the world.

Sky: 21:26

Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah.